Full Interview: Frank Mugisha on New Anti-, Former Guantnamo Prisoners Ask Biden to Let Them Keep Art They Made to Escape Inhumane Conditions, Part 1: In 2003, This U.K. Whistleblower Almost Stopped the Iraq Invasion. I wanted to go to the making of the filmKeira Knightley, did you meet with her?and also ask you, Gavin, about Keira taking on this role. So, from a dramatic point of view, you have someone whos just going to their job every day, as most of us do, happens to be a spy working for GCHQ, but could have been a person working for an accounting firm or Enron or Boeing or any other organization, who sees something that is simply wrong, sees, you know, and says, GAVIN HOOD: and says, Im going to speak up.. KATHARINE GUN: Oh, yes, absolutely. Its millions. The Observers front page story on 2 March 2003. And when he didnt come out, I was panicking, you know, and I ran inside. How often does she go through that fateful weekend, where she wrestled with her conscience after seeing the memo? Jed didnt sort of put the two of us together. During the season 5 finale of American Idol, Katharine McPhee was named the runner-up against winner Taylor Hicks. AMY GOODMAN: But what caused you to say no? AMY GOODMAN: Gavin, introduce us to Ben Emmerson. 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At the time, as I well remember, the paper was split in response to the talk of war. 2023 Guardian News & Media Limited or its affiliated companies. But to discover that it was such a young and such a junior employee was extraordinary to us, yeah. I think the number isand forgive me, I should have the figurethree-and-a-half thousand British and American soldiers, 37,000 wounded. Katharine Gun's case can also be very relevant for Julian Assange's defense: "Within half an hour, the case was dropped because the prosecution declined to offer evidence. ED VULLIAMY: At the time, yes, the editor and the political. There have been other attempts to make a film over the years. So her moral certainty was rooted in those formative experiences? Enter Katharine Gun. Don't worry, we won't share or sell your information. For the past nine years she has been living in Turkey with her Turkish husband and their 11-year-old daughter. KATHARINE GUN: No, she hasnt. It was shown in the Castro Theatre. The Tony Blair Conscience Fund or something? I mean, this is difficult for me to say this, but, for those of your viewers who are interested in what happens in the mediaMartin and I, here we are, doing our bestthe two people involved, who are in the film, ED VULLIAMY: The top people are, respectively, managing editor of the Daily Mail, which is a sort of rather. AMY GOODMAN: Works for the attorney general. She is also well known as a GCHQ spy. You get pulled over. Katharine Gun (ne Harwood), 47, is married to Yasar Gn, a Turkish Kurd, with whom she has a 13-year old daughter. Official Secrets, directed by Gavin Hood, is the third in a loose trilogy of political . AMY GOODMAN: And you actually said you hadnt heard of Katharine Gun at the time, which is interesting in itself, because the story, in a sense, was almost killed for a bit. Katharine Gun (ne Harwood), 47, is married to Yasar Gn, a Turkish Kurd, with whom she has a 13-year old daughter. AMY GOODMAN: You mean period dramas of strong women have to be a hundred years ago. When Katharine Gun came across a memo while working for the British government in 2003, her whole world changed. MARTIN BRIGHT: Yes, we had a great, a dramatic moment at the Q&A session. KATHARINE GUN: Actually, time-wise, I was bailed for eight months. You cannot talk to anyone about your intelligence work. Does he try to treat it? Few are aware that her husband had also been thrown into troubled waters when Gun blew the lid off the alleged spy efforts in 2003. He left the Observer not long after the events it describes and now runs the Creative Society, a charity that helps widen access to jobs in the media and the arts to candidates with non-traditional backgrounds. But, yes, I did. That whole period undermined the judicial process, it undermined the parliamentary process, and it undermined the media and press and the intelligence service. We are all of us living, she believes, with the consequences of that. 101 years old Katherine Coleman Goble Johnson was an American mathematician whose orbital mechanics calculations as a NASA employee were critical to the success of the first and subsequent crewed spaceflights in the United States. Film-makers generally like to glamorise newspaper offices, making them All the Presidents Men hothouses of high-level argument and intrigue. AMY GOODMAN: What was it called? The little-told story of British intelligence whistleblower Katharine Gun leaves a trail of unanswered questions worth probing, even 16 years later, . Shes just wearing her jeans and jumpers, you know, to work. I mean, really, these people need to be held accountable for what theyve done. Well, this article is all about the Katherine Johnson childhood, Katherine Johnson husband (s), Katherine Johnson family and Her career in NASA. Youre a bit, AMY GOODMAN: So, there is an uproar. is a 501(c)3 non-profit news organization. [5] Gun heard no more of the email, and had all but forgotten about it until Sunday 2 March, when she saw it reproduced on the front page of The Observer newspaper. This is a rush transcript. One foundered for lack of funds, another strayed further from the truth than she would have liked. MARTIN BRIGHT: Yeah, I must say, when I found out how young she was, it did take me by surprise, and the fact that she was a translator. Inside the world of ministers' secrets", "Iraq war whistleblower's trial 'was halted due to national security threat', "Official Secrets: A Conversation With Director Gavin Hood", "Official Secrets review Keira Knightley excels in Iraq war whistleblower drama", "15 Years Later: How U.K. Whistleblower Katharine Gun Risked Everything to Leak a Damning Iraq War Memo", "Film on British whistleblower's life to hit Turkish theaters", "Whistleblowerin Katharine Gun - "Ich wrde es wieder tun", "Sundance 2019: Premieres Include Harvey Weinstein Docu, Mindy Kaling, Dr. Ruth, UK Spies, Miles Davis & Ted Bundy", "Daniel Ellsberg speaking about Katharine Gun", In 2003, This U.K. Whistleblower Almost Stopped the Iraq Invasion. You know, youre not waiting for someone for hours in makeup. And I justI just determined to deny it. AMY GOODMAN: The networks, like Fox, and The Drudge Report, CNN refused to interview you, saying that this couldnt be a real memo because, unfortunately, your newspaper translated it into British. I mean, I dont think we imagined that we would be still friends and still talking about it 14, 15 years later. Shes beginning to understand the issues, but she hasnt seen it yet, Gun said in 2019 when her daughter was 11-years-old. Shes out. So I really didnt want any of that to be scrutinized because it just felt too vulnerable, stated Gun, on why she chose to retreat from the limelight once the dust had settled. And they attempt to deport your husband, who is a? Congratulations are in order for Fox News personality Kat Timpf and her beau Cameron Friscia! You didnt have that kind of support. The people who went in and smashed it up in 2003, do they watch the news? White bread, white Trump, white, or this America, the one of every color, creed? You know, we dont have that. First day, what did you feel? Im on the whole a fairly shy person, she confessed in an interview. I felt awful. And Ben comes up with this idea. Im sure that what Katharine felt when in 2010 we found out that Lord Goldsmith had declared the war, in his advice, illegal, must have been pretty painful for Katharine to hear, as it was for me when Congress said, I think around 2004, '05, we knew, actually, there were no weapons of mass destruction. I think most people have red lines that they wont cross. There are lots of loose ends here still. Katharine Gun outside the Old Bailey after charges had been dropped against her, 2004. KATHARINE GUN: Need I say more? KATHARINE GUN: Well, hes Turkish, from a Kurdish background, yeah. Gun was outraged after she learned - as part of her job with GCHQ - that the United States wanted . I met her in August in Durham, when she was on a brief visit to see her father. We speak with a British whistleblower whose attempts to expose lies about the Iraq invasion was called "the most important and courageous leak" in history by. to your inbox each morning. Whatever you think of Kamala Harris, you can say, Which America do you want? She knows what it's like to have her face slapped, her bones broken and her nose bloodied by her former bully of a husband, an active Marine Colonel and a man who she claims is "above the law and literally gets away with murder." So, was that Frank Koza? But lets talk about that moment in the courthouse. All rights reserved. It was like watching a case that was very similar to my own. So give us the nutthe nutshell description of this story. You know, my initial instinct was Ive got to remain anonymous. You know, the conservative estimates are 125,000 up to a million. Most people do. And I had to thank her forI mean, you know, in totally selfish terms, helping me break the biggest story of my life. So, lots of leads there. Did everything change? Why did you come in? KATHARINE GUN: Well, yeah, yeah. Macdonald stated that Gun would not have received a fair trial without the disclosure of information that would have compromised national security. After they charged me, thats when they tried to deport my husband. Almost a million Iraqis. 2023 Cinemaholic Inc. All rights reserved. The first is a U.N. resolution for war. I hope, when shes ready for this story, she will. However, Yasar could not be there for her trial as Gun, and her associates worried that his presence would turn Guns story into that of his as a refugee in Britain. One question that recurs, she says, comes from audience members asking what they should do, how they should behave, in the current mendacious political climate. And you had a showing in San Francisco. I was teaching Mandarin in the local college in Cheltenham. [9] Gun spent a night in police custody, and eight months later was charged with breaking the Official Secrets Act. She becomes the corporate sister-daughter, she dives into the power suit and high-waisted pants or Katharine Hepburn moment. British linguist, translator and whistleblower, This article is about the British whistleblower. I felt awful after I denied it. Ten years ago, a young Mandarin specialist at GCHQ, the government's surveillance centre in Cheltenham, did something extraordinary. The movie tells the story of Katharine Gun (played by Keira Knightley), a translator with the U.K.'s GCHQ who, in 2003, leaked top secret documents to journalist Martin Bright (Matt Smith) that . Truth has a habit of . No need for weapons of mass destruction arguments. So, they immediatelywell, first of all, my manager said, What would you like to do? And I said, Well, pfff, what can I do? You know, we have to tell internal security. Katharine Gun is the Most Important Whistleblower You've Never Heard of. Interview: Whistleblower Katharine Gun. And the other way is the good, old-fashioned self-defense. Ellsberg has called Katharine Guns action the most important and courageous leak I have ever seen. But, you know, it. And so, we talked about motherhood and all sorts of things, but I was just so impressed with how intelligent she was and how incisive she was in getting to the crux of the matter. Iraq war whistleblower Katharine Gun: Truth always matters. But as we said last night, this is the purpose of Albert Camuss great story La Peste, when Dr. Rieux is given the child dying of plague. Shes ordinary. You're KATHARINE GUN: . AMY GOODMAN: And these ambassadors are the ambassadors of? I ended up, bizarrely, teaching a couple of my former colleagues at GCHQ. ED VULLIAMY: Yes, the people who were giving Martin traction to get this story out, and who effectively, according to Mr. Daviess book, censored mine, about the cooking-up of the WMD and the fact that we knew Saddam didnt have any. Gun splits her time between Turkey and Britain. The country, at the time, was being drummed into war by the Blair government, desperate to achieve the United Nations sanction for the imminent American-led invasion of Iraq. And the case was dropped. Anyway. But lets go back to the moment. So. "[12], Two years after her trial, Gun wrote an article titled "Iran: Time to Leak",[22] which asked whistleblowers to make public any information about plans for a potential war against Iran. And so, a lot, a lot later. I mean, we certainly did meet in the courthouse. Is that when you both met? And she said, Gavin, I dont want to wear makeup. Official Secrets is based on the actions of Brit Katharine Gun, who revealed that America had been eavesdropping on diplomats from other countries. Keira Knightley: Iraq was the first time Id been politically engaged, Leaking or briefing? The second act of the movie is concerned with the internal newspaper politics of that decision. AMY GOODMAN: Whatever you tried to do didnt succeed. You know, youre the attorney general. But it was, yeah, a moment of great humility, actually. What was he telling Blair until the 11th hour, where he changed his mind, it seems, at the 11th hour, and said, 'Oh, well, you can justify on the basis of Resolution 678 from 1991,' this fringe idea that no decent international lawyerand Im an ex-lawyerbelieves to be even remotely sensible?. She grew up in Taiwan, where her father had gone to teach, and her accent is hard to place. AMY GOODMAN: The people Martin was fighting to get this story out. So, Lord Goldsmith decides to prosecute Katharine Gun. At first they dont name you, but then they do. MARTIN BRIGHT: OK, youre making me feel really bad about going to work for him now. AMY GOODMAN: Ed Vulliamy, you were the U.S. correspondent for The Observer. ED VULLIAMY: Yes. At the time, Katharine Gun was working for Britains Government Communications Headquarters, known as GCHQ. Youre breaking the speed limit. That is a difficult question, she says. AMY GOODMAN: Now, he goes in for a regular check-in. Some people have very low tolerance of wrongdoing, whether it is fiddling expenses, or whatever. Inside the world of ministers secrets, Iraq war whistleblowers trial was halted due to national security threat, Permanent Record by Edward Snowden review the whistleblowers memoir, 'They wanted me gone': Edward Snowden tells of whistleblowing, his AI fears and six years in Russia, I had a moral duty: whistleblowers on why they spoke up, 'You've caused an international incident': how my work mistake came back to haunt me, Fortheir eyes only: the secret stories ministers dont want you to read, Take it from a whistleblower: Chilcot's jigsaw puzzle is missing a few pieces, Hollywood beckons for whistleblower who risked jail over Iraq dirty tricks. KATHARINE GUN: I was waiting outside in the police station, yes. I think. And whats so marvelous about what Gavins done is to just sort of bring this back into the present. Photo: Kevin RC Wilson. AMY GOODMAN: The horror of what you did not succeed in preventing, though, which was the deaths of so many in Iraq, and that continues today, but you certainly touched the conscience of not just the nation, but the world, in what you did, talking about what womanwhat one woman could do. [5], Gun graduated with an upper second-class degree, then took a job as an assistant English teacher with the JET program in Hiroshima, Japan. We still dont know who within the American administration ordered the operation. We have sort of, you know, I want to take my country back from all those Portuguese nurses and Polish plumbers, that we really must get rid of, and sort of whats best for Britain. You know, we dont have an opposition in our country, whereas you do in yours, thank god. We can all have a view on Saddam Hussein and whether he should be deposed or not. AMY GOODMAN: Shes then arrested. But a part of me thought: Damn we could have put the war on trial. It was very difficult initially. And I did this sort of dive. We could haveyou know, you always have regrets, dont you? [3], Katharine Harwood moved to Taiwan in 1977 with her parents, Paul and Jan Harwood. For example, youre racing to the hospital with your wife. He gets more and more pressure from Blair. They were just going to pick him up, and took him out. [25][26] Together with journalist Peter Beaumont, Gun advised and consulted over the years it took to make the film and they are "very happy with the result.[20]. Ed Vulliamys character, played by Rhys Ifans in the film, says, you know, he effing caved at the time when his country needed him most. Then, Katherine Knight took a butcher knife from next to her bed where she had always kept them and stabbed Price 37 times. Lord Goldsmith must have saidI mean, I imagine. Don't let 'the intelligence and the facts be fixed around the policy' this time. I mean, my initial encounter with him at the Faith Foundation was extremely concerning, in fact, because he said that what he wanted me to do was develop a heat map, you know, an interactive map of all the madrassas, you know, Islamic schools, around the world, with my tiny team of two or three interns, showingand he looked me in the eye, and he said, I want you to be ableI want people who are looking on our website to be able to see how radical those madrassas are, by color coding.. . You think everyone sees on your face that youre the leaker. And yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. Your defense becomes: It was necessary to break the law in order to achieve a higher purpose, which is the saving of human life. Indeed, your point about Bush is right. It was a very big audience, lovely, lovely theater. You hardly told anybody what you had done. A full trial might have exposed any such documents to public scrutiny, as the defence was expected to argue that trying to stop an unlawful war of aggression outweighed Gun's obligations under the Official Secrets Act.